Tuesday, November 26, 2013

[Q&A] Leonard Pimentel (Prowlers & Paragons)

[19:03] <+LakeSideLen> Hi, I'm Len, and I'm a game designer.
[19:03] <+Nestor> HI, Len!
[19:03] <+LakeSideLen> <insert muted Hey Len from the crowd>
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[19:04] <*the_crowd*> hey len
[19:04] <+LakeSideLen> So, I wrote a supers game called Prowlers & Paragons, and dan was kind enough to invite me here to caht about it
[19:04] <+LakeSideLen> chat even
[19:04] <+LakeSideLen> with you typing, you're in for a treat
[19:04] <~Dan> (Yes. This is not a caht house.)
[19:04] <+LakeSideLen> my typing
[19:04] <+LakeSideLen> heh
[19:04] <+LakeSideLen> So, P&P is a rules light supers game
[19:05] <+LakeSideLen> and the idea was to find a midpoint between a purely narrative game and a crunchy rules heavy game
[19:06] <+LakeSideLen> so while your standard skill-check type rolls really determine who gets narrative control more than whether or not you succeed at an action
[19:06] <+LakeSideLen> the combat portion of the show is a bit more concrete
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[19:06] <~Dan> (Howdy, KJ!)
[19:06] <+LakeSideLen> but still wildly unrealistic
[19:07] <+Nestor> :)
[19:07] <+LakeSideLen> the game uses a pool of d6's, that explode on a 6, for all action resolution
[19:07] <+LakeSideLen> and it uses pools of points akin to bennies, resolve for the heroes and Adversity for the GM
[19:08] <+LakeSideLen> aaaaaaaaand scene! (done)
[19:08] <~Dan> Thanks, Len!
[19:08] <~Dan> Would anyone like to start us off with a question, or shall I do the honors?
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[19:08] <+Nestor> With a number of rules-light supers RPGs out there, what inspired you to create your own?
[19:08] <~Dan> (Howdy, Aincumis!)
[19:08] <+Keyes> What's the latest (ETA) on the print version?
[19:08] <+LakeSideLen> Boredom.
[19:08] <+LakeSideLen> I lost a bet
[19:08] <+Nestor> :)
[19:08] <+LakeSideLen> Madness
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[19:09] <+LakeSideLen> In fact ...
[19:09] <+LakeSideLen> Print version is about 8 weeks
[19:09] <+LakeSideLen> back to the creation
[19:09] <+LakeSideLen> In fact ...
[19:09] <&Silverlion> All three?
[19:10] <&Silverlion> Cool. Where will print be available?
[19:10] <+LakeSideLen> I wanted to play a supers game that was semi-narrative but not totally narrative, and i couldn't find one.
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[19:10] <~Dan> (Welcome, Guest23! You can set your name with the /nick command. :) )
[19:10] <~Dan> (PM to Nestor, btw.)
[19:11] <+LakeSideLen> i started creating a 1005 purely narrative control game, one where your roll determined whether you or the GM got to control the narrative, but i realized quickly that such a game made the very concept of super powers all-but irrelevant
[19:11] <+LakeSideLen> let's pretend that 1005 isn't there, shall we?
[19:11] <~Dan> Agreed!
[19:12] <+LakeSideLen> anyway, I ended up creating TNT (The Narrative Toolbox), a different game of ours, and one that I personally love
[19:12] <+Nestor> That's been my issue with purely-narrative games, too.
[19:12] <+LakeSideLen> the rules there are about narrative control and nothing more
[19:12] <+LakeSideLen> works beautifully when that's what you want
[19:12] <+Nestor> If I'm allowed a follow-up question, are there any other RPGs you're thinking of creating using TNT?
[19:13] <+LakeSideLen> but when you play supers, when I play supers, i want something more.  i want to know how strong I am, how fast I am, etc.
[19:13] <~Dan> (Sure, Nestor! Fire away with questions unless you see me call for a question pause.)
[19:13] * ~Dan nods
[19:13] <&Silverlion> (I understand I wrote something with a bit of substance)
[19:14] <+LakeSideLen> So, I wanted a game taht had narrative control elements to it, but i wanted a bit more crunch and granularity than, say, the Margaret Weiss Marvel game 9which, to be clear, is UTTERLY BRILLIANT)
[19:14] <+LakeSideLen> Thus, after getting the pure narrative game out of my system, i wrote P&P
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[19:15] <+Nestor> MHR is a great game for combat. The roleplay side of it, though, I found somewhat lacking. I like P&P because it does address that aspect very well.
[19:15] <&Silverlion> That's a good thing. IMHO
[19:15] <+LakeSideLen> Thanks!
[19:15] <+LakeSideLen> Sidenote: regarding TNT, we are still assessing the demand for supplements, and what direction to go wit them
[19:16] <+Nestor> A setting!
[19:16] <+LakeSideLen> I believe  I have frightened everyone off ... ;)
[19:16] <+Nestor> :)
[19:16] <~Dan> Nope. Just listening. :)
[19:16] <+LakeSideLen> (done)
[19:16] <+MonkofLords> (So what is the approach to for powers? How abstract or strict are they? )
[19:16] <~Dan> So let's start with the basics... Do you have a character sheet you could link us to?
[19:17] <~Dan> (That sounds like an involved question, so I'll call for a question pause there.)
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[19:18] <+LakeSideLen> Powers, like everything else, fall in the middle.  We use "Blast" rather than "flame blast," "ice blast" on one side of the continuum, or "Damage (options: energy-based, ranged, charged, from hands)" on the other end of the continuum.
[19:19] <+LakeSideLen> It's not a build your own powers system (which feels like homework to me), nor is every power option defined.
[19:19] <+LakeSideLen> Does that answer your question, Monk?
[19:19] <+MonkofLords> Yes, thank you.
[19:20] <~Dan> To follow up on that... can you simulate different sorts of blasts?
[19:20] <+LakeSideLen> I am a techno-moron, so not sure how to link the character sheet, but you can download it here (Link: http://www.lsgrpg.com/Downloads.html)http://www.lsgrpg.com/Downloads.html
[19:20] <+Nestor> One thing I liked was that it didn't have a complex system of characteristics and skills that you use to calculate how well you do stuff.
[19:21] <+LakeSideLen> Dan: yes.
[19:21] <+Nestor> You have traits that diorectly define what things you can do and how well you can do them.
[19:21] <+Keyes> (Link: http://www.lsgrpg.com/uploads/P_P_Hero_Sheet_Color.pdf)http://www.lsgrpg.com/uploads/P_P_Hero_Sheet_Color.pdf
[19:21] <+LakeSideLen> Yo would use Blast
[19:21] <+LakeSideLen> (thanks Keyes)
[19:21] <+Keyes> n/p
[19:21] <+LakeSideLen> and then you would define the kind of damage you inflict (edged, blunt, heat, Phyllis Diller, whatever)
[19:22] <+Nestor> (Phyllis Diller? NOOOOO!) ;)
[19:22] <+LakeSideLen> and then you can apply pros and cons (options) like area, homing, etc.
[19:22] <+MonkofLords> (That's dangerous stuff)
[19:22] <+LakeSideLen> In fact
[19:23] <~Dan> I see you distinguish between Traits and Perks, but some of the Perks seem to be powers in and of themselves. Could you comment on that?
[19:23] <+LakeSideLen> You can even use Blast to represent something like crazy archery skills
[19:24] <+LakeSideLen> The distinction between traits and perks is the diffece between a light switch and a dimmer swicth.
[19:24] <+LakeSideLen> traits have a rank in dice, while perks just ARE
[19:24] <&Silverlion> What kind of scaling do you use?
[19:24] <+LakeSideLen> You roll to attack with your blast, but not to breathe water, so we needed a distinction
[19:25] <+LakeSideLen> i never look at the scale
[19:25] <+LakeSideLen> Kidding!
[19:25] * ~Dan chuckles
[19:25] <~Dan> You'll do well here, Len.
[19:26] <+LakeSideLen> Let's look at lifting: 2d = 250 lbs, 3d= 500 lbs., 4d=1,000 lbs (human max),
[19:26] <+LakeSideLen> progression continues: 1 ton, 2 tons, 5 tons,  10 tons, 25 tons, 50 tons, 100 tons, etc ....
[19:27] <&Silverlion> I see.
[19:27] <+LakeSideLen> Again, like everything else in the game, we wanted a mid-point granularity
[19:27] <&Silverlion> What's the max dice rating?
[19:27] <~Dan> (It's so sad that I recall the Marvel heroes that fit those benchmarks...)
[19:27] <+Bigby> Do things other than lifting strength increase exponentially?
[19:28] <+Nestor> (Who doesn't? ;) )
[19:28] <+LakeSideLen> There is no max, but I would expect 10d cap for starting heroes
[19:28] <&Silverlion> (That's not sad, sign of a good game)
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[19:29] <+LakeSideLen> Beast, Spider Man, Rogue, Thing & Colossus at Monstrous (75), Thor
[19:29] <~Dan> (Howdy, Abstruse!)
[19:29] <~Dan> Len, meet Abstruse, RPG columnist for Ain't It Cool News. :)
[19:29] <+LakeSideLen> sorry, distracted by almost getting my FASERIPed
[19:29] <+LakeSideLen> Hi, Abstruse!
[19:29] <+Nestor> (*rimshot*)
[19:29] <+Abstruse> (Hello...sorry I'm late, not been a fun night)
[19:29] <~Dan> (Sorry to hear that!)
[19:30] <&Silverlion> Beast at In, Rogue at In Spider-Man at In... :D
[19:30] <+LakeSideLen> Well, welcome
[19:30] <+LakeSideLen> Bigby
[19:30] <~Dan> Actually, could we backtrack a bit to the core mechanic? Can you give us an example of how it works?
[19:31] <+LakeSideLen> regarding the scaling increase, it's a bit less concrete because what in supers-land is as concrete as lifting?  Not much.  Speed does follow a similar path.
[19:32] <+LakeSideLen> Dan:  Sure ... In fact ... Give me 1 moment .... Two mighty heroes, Citizen Soldier and Gatecrasher, are putting on an arm wrestling exhibition for charity. Both have a 10d Might, which is the trait that applies to this action.
[19:32] <+Nestor> (I recognize this example... ;) )
[19:32] <+LakeSideLen> Citizen Soldier doesn’t bother rolling and instead takes an automatic success for every 2 dice of Might, giving him a total of 5 successes. Gatecrasher, meanwhile, rolls all 10 dice and gets only 4 successes.
[19:33] <+LakeSideLen> However, two of those successes are 6s. He rolls those two dice again and gets a 1 and a 6, granting him a fifth success and another roll. He rolls that 6 a third time and gets a 2, granting him a sixth and final success.
[19:33] <+LakeSideLen> Gatecrasher winds up with a total of 6 successes! Because both characters are attempting the same action, the one who rolled more successes (Gatecrasher) is considered the actor. Subtracting Citizen Soldier’s 5 successes,
[19:33] <+LakeSideLen> Gatecrasher ends up with 1 net success. Gatecrasher will get to describe the outcome of the arm wrestling competition, but Citizen Soldier will get to add an embellishment to the narration.
[19:34] <~Dan> What determines a success on an individual die?
[19:34] <+LakeSideLen> Evens
[19:34] <+LakeSideLen> But if you prefer odds, go nuts
[19:34] <+LakeSideLen> :)
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[19:35] <~Dan> Well, then a 6 wouldn't be a success but would explode, which would be... well, odd. :)
[19:35] <+Nestor> If using odds, I recommend making the 1 the explode number
[19:35] <+LakeSideLen> Each die has 50/50 success/failure and 1 in 6 chance to explode
[19:35] <+Nestor> (Beat me to it. :) )
[19:35] <+LakeSideLen> Yep, 1's explode if you go odds
[19:35] <~Dan> So I take it there are benchmarks for how much narrative control you get?
[19:36] <~Dan> Based upon net successes, I mean?
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[19:36] <~Dan> (Welcome, Guest93!)
[19:36] <+LakeSideLen> Did you know that's what the rules say when you read them in the eastern himisphere?
[19:36] <+Abstruse> I think it'd be interesting to still have 6s explode...like getting a second chance.
[19:36] <+LakeSideLen> hemisphere
[19:36] <~Dan> (You can set your name with the /nick command.)
[19:36] <+LakeSideLen> ...sigh ...
[19:36] * ~Dan chuckles
[19:37] <+Nestor> (Hey, Len, you should mention the Quickstart Issue...)
[19:37] <+LakeSideLen> re: narrative control: 2+ successes, you own it, 1 success means you control and the GM embellishes, 0 successes means the GM controls and you embellish, and negative successes means the GM owns it
[19:38] <+LakeSideLen> Oh, thanks Nestor.  yes, there's a free Quickstart Issue available that has, basically, ALL the rules.
[19:38] <+Abstruse> Is character creation point-based?
[19:38] <+Keyes> (Link: http://www.lsgrpg.com/uploads/ProwlersParagonsQuickstartIssuev1.1.pdf)http://www.lsgrpg.com/uploads/ProwlersParagonsQuickstartIssuev1.1.pdf
[19:39] <+LakeSideLen> Yes, abstruse.  Hero Dice based, in fact, but it's the same idea (someone get Keyes a cookie, on me)
[19:39] * +Nestor throws cookie to Keyes
[19:39] <+Abstruse> Hero Dice?
[19:39] <+LakeSideLen> We went with hero dice just because stats are dice-based, so we though to use the same terminology.
[19:39] <+Keyes> thanks :-)
[19:40] <+LakeSideLen> I have a pool of 36 hero dice, i put 4 of them into an ability, that ability goes up by 4 dice
[19:41] <+LakeSideLen> My vote was to call them Bamboozle Bits, but the cat shot me down.
[19:41] <+LakeSideLen> Did I miss a question?
[19:41] <+LakeSideLen> Oh
[19:42] <+LakeSideLen> In combat, instead of vying for narrative control, every success = 1 point of damage
[19:42] <+Abstruse> And everything's ability based?
[19:42] <+Nestor> (Now I want to create a character with that as his name. :) )
[19:42] <+Abstruse> Sorry if I'm retreading here, I was late to the party tonight ^_^;;
[19:42] <+LakeSideLen> Or every 2 success = 1 round of effect (ensnare, stun, whatever)
[19:43] <+LakeSideLen> No worries, Abstruse
[19:43] <+LakeSideLen> Everything is ability (trait) based, but Might is a trait, Academics is a trait, and Blast is a trait.
[19:44] <+LakeSideLen> If its not an on-or-off ability like Water Breathing, it's a trait
[19:44] <~Dan> But I note that some traits are "everyman" traits?
[19:45] <+LakeSideLen> All characters start out with 2d in all mundane traits 918 of them i think) which combine what you would think of as stats and skills
[19:45] <+LakeSideLen> you can raise those, or you can buy super traits, like flight, Phyllis Diller resistance, etc.
[19:45] * ~Dan laughs
[19:45] <+Nestor> (18 is correct, sir)
[19:46] <+LakeSideLen> Sorry, Abstruse, that's a call-back to an earlier gag
[19:46] <~Dan> So you can have "super-skills"?
[19:46] <+LakeSideLen> You want to have Academics at 12d, go nuts
[19:47] <+Abstruse> Mad Scientist, baby!
[19:47] <+LakeSideLen> but "super skills" are probably most useful in the context of skills that get opposed by others, things like Perception
[19:48] <+LakeSideLen> that would be Technology, and at 12d technology, you can kit-bask on the fly like all get out during an adventure (there are rules for that)
[19:48] <+Abstruse> At chargen, do they increase point-for-point? Like having Academics 5D and Might 5D costs the same as Academics 2D and Might 8D?
[19:48] <+LakeSideLen> grrr, kit-bash
[19:48] <~Dan> Now, going back to combat for a moment -- and yes, this is something we discussed pre-Q&A :) -- damage is front-loaded into the chance to hit, correct?
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[19:48] <~Dan> (Howdy, Geek2theRight!)
[19:48] <+LakeSideLen> Abstruse: yep, it's a flat cost system.
[19:49] <+LakeSideLen> I wanted chargen to be simple
[19:49] <+LakeSideLen> And there's no reason to penalize either the specialist or the jack of All traits
[19:50] <+LakeSideLen> Dan:
[19:50] <+LakeSideLen> Re: combat
[19:50] <+LakeSideLen> Yes, accuracy and damage are lumped into one
[19:51] <+LakeSideLen> You have 12d Blast (and eeek! if you do), you roll 12d to hit, and if you hit, you do 1 damage per net success
[19:51] <+LakeSideLen> NOW
[19:51] <~Dan> So how do you handle weak-but-accurate and clumsy-but-powerful attacks?
[19:51] <+LakeSideLen> there are 2 options (cons, actuall)
[19:51] <+LakeSideLen> that you can apply to change this
[19:51] <+LakeSideLen> Inaccurate and Underpowered
[19:52] <+LakeSideLen> first -- defenses work like attacks, combining defense and resistance
[19:52] <~Dan> (That sounds like a movie title.)
[19:52] <+LakeSideLen> so when you get attacked you either dodge or resist it (in other words, you defend either with your Athletics or your Toughness)
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[19:53] <+LakeSideLen> Obviously, it's an abstraction
[19:53] <+LakeSideLen> Oka
[19:53] <+LakeSideLen> y
[19:53] <+LakeSideLen> Oi my typing
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[19:54] <~Dan> (wb, Sigh!)
[19:54] <+LakeSideLen> so when you apply Inaccurate to a power, your rank is halved when someone uses Athletics to defend themselves against that attack
[19:54] <+LakeSideLen> when you apply Underpowered to a power, your rank is halved when someone uses Toughness to defend themselves
[19:55] <+LakeSideLen> that's how you create accurate put weak or strong but clumsy
[19:55] <+LakeSideLen> however
[19:55] <+LakeSideLen> I think that's an rpg thing and not a comics thing
[19:55] <+LakeSideLen> which is why we made these things options rather than built them in by default
[19:55] <~Dan> Mind if I follow up there?
[19:56] <+LakeSideLen> in the comics, the guys who can fight, can fight!
[19:56] <+LakeSideLen> one sec Dan
[19:57] <+Abstruse> Trying to balance superheroes is always hard because they don't balance in the comics.
[19:57] <+LakeSideLen> The blast visor guy not only has awesomely powerful eyebeams, but he can use them, same with the claw guy, and the big green strong guy is actually a darned good fighter ... it's rare that the distincts we worry about as gamers really impact comics
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[19:58] <+LakeSideLen> exactly, Abstruse -- your rank in your attack power determines how much of a threat you are with that power, whether from accuracy, damage, both, whatever ...
[19:58] <~Dan> (Welcome, Guest66! You can set your name with the /nick command if you like. :) )
[19:58] <+LakeSideLen> and if you really want to distinguish, you can
[19:58] <+LakeSideLen> okay Dan, done
[19:58] <+LakeSideLen> thanks
[19:59] <~Dan> No problem!
[19:59] <~Dan> So here's my thought re: Imprecise....
[19:59] <~Dan> Let's say we're talking the Hulk vs. Spidey.
[20:00] <~Dan> When those two go at it, Spidey generally dodges all over the place.
[20:00] <+LakeSideLen> my lawyer has noted that you named these characters, not I, but please continue
[20:00] <+LakeSideLen> ;)
[20:00] <~Dan> It's understood that if he gets tagged, he is in serious trouble. (And fair enough. Heh. :) )
[20:00] <+Nestor> :)
[20:01] <~Dan> But I would think that using Imprecise on the Hulk to simulate this, the effect would be that he'd do less damage to Spidey if he does manage to hit.
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[20:02] <+Bigby> But Hulk shouldn't be Imprecise.  When he and another Brick fight they consistently hit each other and he is far faster than a normal human.
[20:02] <+Maelthra____> Hulk is pretty Imprecise in the comics though.
[20:02] <+Bigby> Spidey is just using Dodge while another brick would use Resist.  Right?
[20:02] <+Bigby> Not for the last 20 years or so.
[20:03] <+Maelthra____> He really still is. He does a lot when he hits, but the hitting happens less.
[20:03] <+Maelthra____> anyway, that's off topic a bit I guess, so I won't derail further
[20:03] <+Nestor> I think the point is that if you feel you want to model the character's power that way, the option is available, but it's not the default.
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[20:04] <+LakeSideLen> Okay, so here's my take
[20:05] <+LakeSideLen> First, even with Imprecise, Hulk would have a very good attack, especially since he would be all-out attacking
[20:06] <+LakeSideLen> Way better than the best human fighter
[20:06] <+LakeSideLen> No, as for the original comment, probably, Hulk would hit much less often and do less damage when he did hit, in terms of game mechanics
[20:07] <+LakeSideLen> But remember the baseline is that the mechanics define the narrative
[20:07] <+LakeSideLen> They do with skills, and they do with damage
[20:08] <&Silverlion> I've always thought that he hits the area and that well causes problems, rather than the person directly
[20:08] * ~Dan nods
[20:08] <+LakeSideLen> If Spidey takes 1 damage from the Hulk (oh no, I'm channeling Gygax!), maybe he got nicked, maybe he's fatiguing, maybe he rolled with the punch and shrugged of most of it 9he got suck-punched by a Herald of galactus once)
[20:09] <+LakeSideLen> sucker punched
[20:09] <+LakeSideLen> I need to hire atypist
[20:09] <~Dan> (Firelord, IIRC.)
[20:09] <+LakeSideLen> see??????
[20:09] * ~Dan snickers
[20:09] <+Nestor> ("suck-punched". Heh. :) )
[20:09] <+LakeSideLen> I think I love you, Dan.  Yes, it was Firelord
[20:09] * ~Dan bows
[20:10] <~Dan> Now, on a related note, how do you handle super-martial artist types who dish out damage through skill rather than brute force?
[20:10] <+LakeSideLen> In the comics, we are so far from reality that the distinctions we make about accuracy vs damage and defense vs resistance get, well, silly.
[20:10] <&Silverlion> Firelord. He was a Xan right?
[20:10] <+LakeSideLen> <bows to Silverlion>
[20:11] <+Nestor> (Hah! Knew that one was coming! :) )
[20:11] <&Silverlion> Xandar Yep. He was a Xan
[20:11] <+LakeSideLen> Martial Artist = Strike power.  That's your king-fu version of blast (or claws, or energy punch, or having little Phyllis Dillers on your hands, or whatever)
[20:12] <+LakeSideLen> It works as an attack, and you can also use it as a defense against melee attacks
[20:12] <+LakeSideLen> (done)
[20:12] <+LakeSideLen> wiat
[20:12] <+LakeSideLen> wait, even
[20:12] <+LakeSideLen> :p
[20:14] <+LakeSideLen> back to Spidey / Hulk: if it were more simulationist (i) Hilk would never hit spidey, (ii) if he ever did, Spidey would die instantly, and (iii) both people who trid to playtest taht fight would hunt me down and kill me if they urvibed the boredom of it
[20:14] <+LakeSideLen> where's my editor??????
[20:14] <+Nestor> (Just noticed, "king-fu". My list of silly powers to write up grows steadily. ;) )
[20:15] <+LakeSideLen> LOL
[20:15] <~Dan> I know it's a typo, but "urvibed" is a really cool word.
[20:15] <+LakeSideLen> THAT, I can type
[20:15] <+Maelthra____> I would think that would be a lot of fun, personally. Variety is fun.
[20:16] <~Dan> To shift gears for a moment, does P&P have its own setting, explicit or implied?
[20:16] <+LakeSideLen> Maelthra: It might be fun at first, but I really think that "roll, you missed.  roll, you hit and did no damage.  roll, you missed.  roll, you hit and did no damage.  rinse/repeat." would get real old, real fast.
[20:16] <&Silverlion> Nah. He wouldn't die instantly. COmics don't work that way. He' brake all his ribs...and limp away
[20:16] <+LakeSideLen> And like Silver noted, that's not how it works in the comics.
[20:17] <&Silverlion> That does get hold, which is why you did something different.
[20:17] <+Maelthra____> Only about as fast as the other way, really, and yeah, it does.
[20:17] <+LakeSideLen> Hulk will connect with Spidey when the story requires it.
[20:17] <+Maelthra____> Exactly
[20:18] <+xyphoid> that would be a fun comic. hulk punches iron man who flies through three buildings. iron man suit lies there intact but leaking pulped tony stark milkshake
[20:18] <&Silverlion> Moon KNight got hit by the Hulk..
[20:18] <+LakeSideLen> We modeled narrative wiggle room, while not wanting to create the endless fight situation.  I loved FASERIP, but I knew whenever i met a guy whose armor equalled or exceeded by damage, i was done.  We didn't want that
[20:18] <&Silverlion> and survived.
[20:19] <+LakeSideLen> xyphoid: LMAO!
[20:19] <+Nestor> xyphoid: not milkshake, chunky salsa. ;)
[20:19] <+LakeSideLen> Re setting, no, we have none.  There is one implied, in the examples and the recurring characters in the art, of course.
[20:20] <~Dan> Reminds me of "Worldbreaker" Hulk's fight with Wolverine. Hulk basically said, "I know I can't break your skull, but I sure can make your brain slam back and forth inside that indestructible shell it's in."
[20:20] <+Nestor> (BTW, awesome art)
[20:21] <&Silverlion> LakesideLen: People will find fault with that las.
[20:21] <+LakeSideLen> But I don't know about putting out a setting.  It almost feel, unnecessary
[20:21] <~Dan> Would you say P&P leans more toward DC or Marvel? Neither?
[20:21] <+LakeSideLen> Dan - 1 sec, Silver - huh?
[20:21] <+Maelthra____> I prefer settingless systems, as my groups aleways end up being dissatisfied with them anyway.
[20:22] <&Silverlion> They'f find problem with no setting. As much as I think epople should do their own...
[20:22] <&Silverlion> people. The typing thing is infectious
[20:22] <+Nestor> IMO, a setting is appealing (heck, it was my first request), but not critical. Offering it as a supplement is accpetable. M&M did it that way.
[20:22] <+LakeSideLen> While waiting for Silver, Dan, i would like to think both.
[20:22] <+Nestor> acceptable*
[20:22] <+Nestor> Tell me about it. ;)
[20:23] <~Dan> (brb -- please continue)
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[20:23] <+LakeSideLen> Here is my idea on setting: leak it out as fluff within published adventures, rather than vomit it all out at once.
[20:24] <+Nestor> I like that, as long as it stays consistent.
[20:25] <+LakeSideLen> See, any setting we create will be a poor reflection, however creative, of the supers worlds we know and love.  readers will inevitably see the connections, this is their FF, these are their x-man, this is their avengers, etc.
[20:25] <&Silverlion> Yeah. Which is why I'm just going with it :D
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[20:25] <+LakeSideLen> but when you leak out a little bit of setting, backstory, within the context of an adventure, then that specific aspect of your game world actually means something, it has teeth
[20:26] <&Silverlion> Indeed.
[20:26] <&Silverlion> I concur.
[20:27] <+LakeSideLen> who cares if i call it SHIELD (well, i'm pretty sure Disney's lawyers will care, a lot, but for different reasons), CHESS (thank you Jeff Dee and Jack Herman), or something else ...
[20:27] <+Nestor> I know I'd love me some backstories for some of the characters illustrated in the book. :)
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[20:28] <+Nestor> (My favorite has always been UNTIL, United Nations Tribunal of International Law. :) )
[20:28] <+LakeSideLen> but when that government agency that has its hand in the affairs of superheroes comes knocking on your door with a ... request (i.e., thinly-veiled threat that tells you this organization is now all it seems), suddenly the fact that the organization is named UMBRA will matter!
[20:28] <&Silverlion> THUNDER Agends.
[20:28] <&Silverlion> Agents
[20:29] <+LakeSideLen> *not all it seems ... seriously, someone kill me
[20:29] <+LakeSideLen> so that's my feeling about a setting
[20:29] <+Nestor> In one very fun campaign, the government agency saddled with dealing with supers was the NSA. :D
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[20:30] <+Nestor> I like that, Len. I like that a lot. :)
[20:30] <&Silverlion> I've got OSIRIS and WATCH
[20:30] <+LakeSideLen> Thanks, Nestor!
[20:30] <+LakeSideLen> Re Dan's question, I don't know that the rules lean either towards Marvel or DC
[20:30] * ~Dan nods
[20:31] <~Dan> (Also, howdy, egyptian!)
[20:31] <+LakeSideLen> To be, ubiquity of higher power levels is the only real distinction, and that's a function of campaign design, not systm
[20:31] <+LakeSideLen> system, even ...
[20:31] <+LakeSideLen> To me, ubiquity of higher power levels is the only real distinction, and that's a function of campaign design, not system
[20:31] <+LakeSideLen> YAY!
[20:32] <~Dan> :)
[20:32] <+LakeSideLen> :p
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[20:32] <~Dan> When it comes to superhero games, I generally see two main approaches:
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[20:32] <~Dan> (1) Here's what it would be like to have superpowers.
[20:32] <~Dan> (2) Here's what it would be like to be in a comicbook.
[20:33] <~Dan> Do you see that, Len, and if so, which approach do you take?
[20:33] <+LakeSideLen> First, I fear my poor typing may have driven poor Abstruse to commit suicide.
[20:33] <+LakeSideLen> And i feel bad about that
[20:33] <~Dan> (Replace "to have superpowers" with "to be a superhero", if you like.)
[20:33] <~Dan> As well you should.
[20:33] <+LakeSideLen> Now on to your question
[20:34] <+LakeSideLen> I can see how that could be your take on it, but i don't know that I necessarily see it the same way
[20:34] <+LakeSideLen> how about this
[20:35] <+LakeSideLen> (1) here is a set of rules to help simulate having super powers and using them to, well, to punch things if you really wanna know
[20:37] <+LakeSideLen> (2) here is a game in which you collaborate with your friends to tell a story something like those told in comic books, sorta kinda
[20:37] <+LakeSideLen> And i don't think P&P is really in either camp
[20:37] * ~Dan nods
[20:38] <+LakeSideLen> It's too abstract and far from actual simulation of the real world (like comics) to really play what it would be like to have super powers
[20:39] <+LakeSideLen> And while there's a lot of narrative control being thrown around, it's there on the ground, describing the outcome of this action or that, rather than from a thousand miles away ensuring that your narrative arc is completed
[20:41] * ~Dan nods
[20:41] <+LakeSideLen> What I like to think is, and i think I've written this elsewhere ...,
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[20:41] <~Dan> Do you feel that the narrative control factor is controlled enough that P&P doesn't qualify as a "storytelling game"?
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[20:41] <~Dan> (Howdy, LW!)
[20:42] <+LakeSideLen> Is that as a supers game, its an exercise in empowerment/wish-fulfillment that moves between being a hero and being the guy who designs on panel of the story
[20:43] <+Nestor> If I may, I see it as the difference between talking about the character and /being/ the character.
[20:43] <+LakeSideLen> It's actually close to make believe, like 5 year old childhood make believe, where you play the cowboy (you ARE the cowboy), but you also get to tell your friend how good a shot you are and he has to go along with it
[20:43] <~Dan> Yeah. 1st person vs. 3rd person.
[20:44] <+Nestor> My problem with story-telling games is that they tend to focus so much on the former that I don't get to be the latter.
[20:44] <+LakeSideLen> I think P&P is a blend of both, like make-believe
[20:44] <~Dan> Well, let me give you an example of what I mean, Len...
[20:44] <+LakeSideLen> Sometimes you play, sometimes you direct, back and forth, like you did when you were 5
[20:44] <~Dan> Let's say a PC is trying to bust down a door.
[20:45] <~Dan> In a traditional RPG, the player would roll (or whatever) to see if his character succeeds in busting down the door.
[20:45] <+LakeSideLen> poor door.  but g'head
[20:45] <~Dan> In a storytelling game, he'd roll to see if he gets to describe whether he busts down the door and what he finds on the other side.
[20:46] <~Dan> (As I define the terms, granted.)
[20:46] <~Dan> How much control can a player have in P&P?
[20:46] <+LakeSideLen> Get ready for typos ... this one's a doozy
[20:46] <+LakeSideLen> I won't answer that question
[20:47] <+LakeSideLen> Maybe you read through the game
[20:47] <+LakeSideLen> maybe you look at the examples,
[20:47] <+LakeSideLen> maybe you note that the game seems to give you some control
[20:48] <+LakeSideLen> but then combat seems to take it away from you
[20:48] <+LakeSideLen> i never say explicitly how much control you have.  the game merely gives you guidelines about how to exercise that control and how not to be a tool
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[20:48] <+LakeSideLen> I want each group to run that how they want to run it.  you won't break the game either way
[20:49] <+LakeSideLen> yes, i run it a certain way.  And the examples kind of point to that, as does the fact that the game isn't a complete narrative free-for-all like TNT, as does the more concrete combat system.
[20:50] * ~Dan nods
[20:51] <~Dan> As I mentioned previously, you're welcome to chat with us as long as you like, but is there anything we haven't covered that you'd like to bring up?
[20:51] <+LakeSideLen> But you can play it with as loose or as tight a grip on the reigns as you wish
[20:51] <+LakeSideLen> it doesn't impact the game.  the only place that intentional vagueness might impact the game in an adverse manner would be in combat, and wouldn't you happen to know it, the combat rules are more concrete, with initiative and damage and health and such
[20:52] <+LakeSideLen> almost like it was designed to be vague and let you play how you want ... hmmmmm ;o)
[20:52] <+LakeSideLen> I think i should point out that i really do not have anything against Phyllis Diller
[20:53] <~Dan> Duly noted. :)
[20:53] <+LakeSideLen> But otherwise, I'm good.  If anyone has any questions, I'm happy to stay on
[20:53] <+Nestor> SHe, on the other hand, will be catching up with you shortly. ;)
[20:53] <+LakeSideLen> And anyone can email me at len@lsgrpg.com
[20:54] <+Nestor> I have a question...
[20:54] <+LakeSideLen> The Quickstart is free and has all the rules, so please, check it out if you're interested.
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[20:55] <+LakeSideLen> Questions/  comments?  praise? rebuke (wait, I'm not undead, just tired)
[20:56] <~Dan> You have a question, Nestor?
[20:56] <+Nestor> Hey, you know I'm already a convert, but I'll gladly supply the testimonial.
[20:56] <~Dan> I'd be curious to know how the game handles gadgeteering and magic.
[20:57] <+Nestor> I've been playing superhero RPGs since the 80's, and P&P is the first game I've come across that seems to get the balance of play vs. story right.
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[20:58] <+Nestor> (Don't mind me, Dan. I was going to make a funny., but decided not to)
[20:58] <~Dan> (Oh. :) )
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[21:00] <+Bigby> I would add to Dan's gadget question.  What about Power Armor characters, or characters whose shtick is based largely on a specific item or weapon that they might not have when out of costume?
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[21:00] <+LakeSideLen> wow!
[21:01] <&Silverlion> I'd be interested in what about out of costume stuff?
[21:01] <~Dan> Netsplit.
[21:01] <+LakeSideLen> what just happend?  galactus?
[21:01] <+Serah> Oh wow this is the first time I've seen a netsplit on rpgnet
[21:01] <+Serah> Exciting!
[21:01] <~Dan> It's sort of the Galactus of IRC, yes.
[21:01] <+LakeSideLen> Feel my POWER!!!!
[21:01] <+LakeSideLen> the internet got annoyed with my typing
[21:02] <~Dan> :)
[21:02] <+LakeSideLen> Silver: out of costume stuff?
[21:02] <~Dan> Did you see my question re: gadgeteering and magic?
[21:02] <+LakeSideLen> Powers have classes, with super power being the default. instead, however, it can be a magic power, or a technology power, etc. Just a different "class" of power, mostly fluff, unless you are dealing with powers that affect other powers (oh, hello Rogue)
[21:02] <+LakeSideLen> gadgets, by the way, would be technology class, but would alos probably have the Item con, unless they were implanted om your body (like cyber arm)
[21:02] <+LakeSideLen> The sample characters for the Quickstart have their power classes distinguished by color, but I later realized that leaves color-blind players out in the rain, so i need to do something about that
[21:03] <+LakeSideLen> IN your body (like cyber arm) .. you don't want to know what om your body means.  trust me
[21:04] <~Dan> Is there some combination of flaws that could be used to simulate spellcasting?
[21:04] <+LakeSideLen> Requirement
[21:05] <+LakeSideLen> That about does it
[21:05] <+LakeSideLen> maybe charges
[21:05] * ~Dan nods
[21:05] <~Dan> And I see you have an Omni-Power?
[21:06] <+Nestor> (Well, it's time for this old codger to retire for the evening. TTFN!)
[21:06] <~Dan> (Sleep well!)
[21:06] <+LakeSideLen> Requirement: gestures, incantations, charges 6 per scene
[21:06] <+LakeSideLen> how's that?
[21:06] <+LakeSideLen> I'd make that worth -2d
[21:06] <+LakeSideLen> MUNCHKIN
[21:06] <+LakeSideLen> ;)
[21:06] <+LakeSideLen> Not that those are cons, which are applied to powers
[21:07] <+LakeSideLen> Night, Nestor!
[21:07] <~Dan> Cool. :)
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[21:08] <+LakeSideLen> yep, the do-anything power, expensive because you spend 1 resolve each time, but without that everyone took it just to have a just in case power
[21:09] <~Dan> Would you like to say a bit about the scope of your adversary/bestiary section?
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[21:10] <~Dan> (Howdy, Squide!)
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[21:11] <~Dan> (Howdy, Aeolius!)
[21:11] <+LakeSideLen> Erm ... it's ... big?
[21:11] <+LakeSideLen> seriously, i hope there's enough there to chew on
[21:11] <+LakeSideLen> We added lots of normal and not so normal mundanes
[21:11] <+LakeSideLen> We felt obligated to create lots of animals mostly to support the Animal Forms power (look, we love Beast Boy, there, we said it)
[21:11] <+LakeSideLen> And we wanted the archetype supers chapter to have all 36 hero dice characters so you could just grab one and us it as a hero when playing a pick up game or playing with a new player
[21:11] <+Aeolius> evening, all
[21:11] <+LakeSideLen> We are very big on the idea of reskinning a character, using the same stats for a variety of different enemies.
[21:12] <+LakeSideLen> Hi, guys!
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[21:13] <~Dan> Let's see... would you like to log the chat there, Len? Any other thoughts you want to make sure go into the log?
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[21:16] <+LakeSideLen> I think we're good, my friend.
[21:16] <+LakeSideLen> Thanks for the opportunity.  it was fun.
[21:16] <~Dan> Alrighty then! Thanks very much for visting with us, Len! And please come by any time! We love having game authors hang out with us. :)
[21:16] <+LakeSideLen> Will do!
[21:17] <~Dan> I'll email you the link to the log shortly!
[21:18] <+LakeSideLen> Great.
[21:18] <+LakeSideLen> Signing out.  Night, anyone who's still around.
[21:18] <~Dan> Good night!
[21:18] <+Sigh> Night.
[21:18] <+MonkofLords> Night
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